PIM Podcast – Understanding PIM: Basics, development, practice

Transcript of the video

Jochen Muffler: Welcome to our new format, the crossbase PIM podcast - Product Information Management. The topic that we have been committed to for 25 years as a software manufacturer.

Today I have the great pleasure of talking about this topic with my long-time companion and colleague, Herby Tessadri. We want to shed light on various aspects of PIM. This will certainly be of interest to many people who are in the process of introducing a PIM system or are in the process of deciding which system to choose.

Herby has been doing this for 25 years and has a lot of experience. We want to go into depth and look at different aspects of PIM and I'm delighted that he's here today.

Welcome, Herby.

Herby Tessadri: Hi, thank you for inviting me.

Jochen Muffler: Yes, with pleasure.

For many people, it's interesting to see how the topic of PIM has developed. What would you say it was like 25 years ago? What is it like today?

Herby Tessadri : It starts with the name. Back then, we didn't even talk about PIM, but about "single source publishing" or "database publishing". And there you can already see what the focus was: it was simply about somehow managing the process of getting the same data into these different channels when the Internet and the first CD-ROMs appeared, in addition to the classic print catalog.

Later it was PIM. And that's when you realize that the topic of data came to the fore and this knowledge that clean data is the basis for achieving something. And that's actually where we are today. In other words, in the PIM environment, we have a huge focus on clean data, good data, valuable data, target group-specific data and much more.

And then the second step is the task of publishing it in all possible channels. Even if print is not dead, it no longer has quite the status it perhaps had 20 years ago.

Jochen Muffler: What new developments do you see in this area now? What is in store for us? Or what is the main demand from customers?

Herby Tessadri : If you look at the output channels again, print is experiencing a slight or even greater decline. Electronic formats are all the more popular. Everyone knows Excel for data exchange. It's the universal weapon. There are various classifications and standardized exchange formats, but also more and more things like portals such as Oxomi and nexmart. And these things are playing an increasingly important role.

The really big thing that customers are currently facing is the digital product passport, which is very, very much about communicating product information in some form or other, not out of sales motivation, but as prescribed by law. The main difficulty with this is that it requires a lot of information that is not yet recorded in companies.

Jochen Muffler: Okay, so it's basically about data. Would you say that there are certain sectors for which PIM is currently particularly necessary or important?

Herby Tessadri: Basically, I don't think there are any sectors where PIM doesn't play a role. Apart from the service sector. But for the manufacturing industry or retail, PIM is always an issue.

Coming back to this digital product passport, there is a roadmap for which products this primarily needs to be done in a timely manner. And that includes the building materials industry. And it affects them dramatically. And if there are companies in the market - and there are plenty of them - that do not yet have a PIM system, then it is high time they did. Otherwise it will simply no longer be possible to meet this requirement.

Jochen Muffler : What would you say are the fundamental challenges that companies are currently struggling with? You mentioned the digital product passport, are there any other topics that are currently relevant?

Herby Tessadri : We currently have a difficult economic situation in almost all sectors. And the rule is: those who sell better are more likely to survive. And a very important factor in selling well is well-described products. Every consumer, regardless of whether it is a business-to-business relationship or an end consumer, buys where they are sure of what they are getting, in addition to the price and many other aspects. And that is the case when the product has been clearly described. And a PIM system is essential for this.

Jochen Muffler : Let's move on to crossbase as a software manufacturer: what would you say makes us stand out in this context?

Herby Tessadri : Well, we have 25 years behind us and have seen many competitors that no longer exist and also got to know many competitors that are new to the market. One thing that sets us apart, that our customers appreciate and that is also praised by our prospective customers, is our high level of integration. We talked about it earlier, there is the print channel, there are the online channels, there are all these electronic formats and crossbase is characterized in particular by the fact that everything comes from a single source. That means I don't have different systems that I have to synchronize. I also don't have different providers that I have to coordinate. There is one contact person, there is one system and everything comes out of it. And customers really appreciate that. That is certainly a competitive advantage, if not our USP.

Jochen Muffler: So this high level of integration, we are also talking about a fully integrated database. Can we perhaps go into a little more depth here? What are the potential interfaces and which ones can be avoided by crossbase or by such full integration?

Herby Tessadri: There are two classic approaches, one is best-of-breed. I have a PIM system, then another provider adds a print output and I have an interface in between. I then have to export data from one system and import it into the other. That's a lot of work.

On top of that, I have two systems that I have to update to the same version. You have to take a look at the practical case. Let's look at a catalog production that has been running for two or three months and now data changes during this time and I have to somehow transfer this changed data from one system to the other. This again involves an export, which is time-consuming and error-prone.

That's convenient with crossbase. I can see immediately in the output channel whether something has changed and can update there in a targeted manner - without import-export. And that's not just the case with print, it's the case with electronic formats and our customers have umpteen electronic formats that they have to export, umpteen portals that they have connected. And it's very easy to say: I have a button, I have to press it and then things are updated. Or I have to deal with 4, 5, 6, 7 different systems.

Jochen Muffler: It's about change management, for example when a feature or attribute changes. We have a lot of tables in a printed catalog, for example. And if something changes, I immediately notice that something has changed.

Herby Tessadri: That is very important and is not necessarily the case with other systems. Only with greater effort.

Jochen Muffler: Now you've touched on the subject of print. Print can of course be the printed catalog, but it can also be the pure PDF. How do you currently perceive this? What is happening on the market? What requirements do industrial companies have in this regard?

Herby Tessadri: This is a very exciting topic. We've been in this business together for 25 years and for 25 years people have been saying that print won't be around for much longer. Up until five years ago, almost nothing had happened in this area, except that perhaps the project, the catalog, was not the first priority in a PIM implementation project, but rather in second or third place.

What has changed in the last five years is that companies are actually printing less in the traditional physical sense. But almost everyone still has a catalog in PDF format or in flip catalog format on their website. This means that the entire print ID design process that we support is still necessary.

Jochen Muffler: And wherethen, of course, integration also plays a role again and provides a benefit in this integrated form.

Let's stay with print for a moment, because I also find it extremely exciting, of course, and we'll move on to other topics later.

What is the range of printed catalogs? Where do we as crossbase have our strengths?

In our crossbase reference showcase, we display some of our customers' printed works. Unfortunately, we don't have room for all of them, but there are some very nice examples with different degrees of complexity and expansion or with different scopes, from mechanical engineering or machining technology with drills etc. to retail. Perhaps you can say something about the range we can cover and where the challenges lie for our customers and companies.

Herby Tessadri: In print, I don't shy away from comparison or competition with anyone. But perhaps specifically, or if you look at typical catalogs, there are essentially three approaches. There is this mail order layout, which we know from mail order catalogs, where there is no real placement logic or anything like that. Very creative, very high-quality design. To design something like this, there is our Adobe plugin. Of course, the degree of automation is correspondingly low. But it's about foreign languages, it's about updates in subsequent years and it's about accessing the right data in this manual design process.

Then there are classic catalogs, perhaps also price lists, where there are pages and pages of tables showing different product families.

You may be familiar with this from the textile trade. There's a T-shirt and it comes in different colors and sizes, that's one section and then comes the next. It goes on for pages, it can be highly automated, and we have a good process there too.

And then, and this is where it gets more specialized, there are these complex technical catalogs, where a certain range of products is shown over double pages or four pages or eight pages. This involves very complex interrelationships, accessories that are nested within each other, where matrix tables play a role, where, in addition to the classic product illustration, applications for which I can use the product and in what quality have to be illustrated. This is familiar from the tool trade and is particularly important for technical products. It's probably more difficult to find a system that can do this.

And that is the challenge. On the one hand, to implement and automate it in print or in InDesign. On the other hand, the data management in the PIM must first be implemented in such a way that it can be done at all.

Jochen Muffler: If the data meets the layout, so to speak, then you have the benefit here and can also implement it. Do you have an example? We say that we don't shy away from complexity. The more complex, the better for us, because we have already implemented all possible requirements based on our experience.

Is there a prime example where people perhaps didn't believe we could do it at the beginning or the complexity was so great that the customer said: "Well, that's not feasible"?

Herby Tessadri: That's a saying that was quite typical in the early years. We're already familiar with that, but it doesn't work with our catalogs. In fact, our tool and mechanical engineering customers, such as Gühring or Ceratizit or WNT, where very, very complex interrelationships are depicted, but also in the mechanical engineering sector such as Zimmer or similar, are very complex.

Jochen Muffler: But also Schöck in construction, for example. So with the very, very concentrated or condensed tables.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, that's a good example, by the way, because Schöck also has a very editorial part in its catalog in addition to this complexity in the compression of the tables of tens of thousands of products, which then had to be brought into a table, highly automated or fully automated. PIM is very often thought of from a marketing perspective, from an advertising perspective, if you like. At Schöck, the point is that a lot of design rules and design information and instructions, which actually come from the area of technical editing, also have to be included in the catalog.

And that is also something that characterizes crossbase: that we can also map editorial and other content via the classic PIM and marketing content and then use it sensibly in the individual output channels.

Jochen Muffler: And the ability to save back. The bidirectional interface makes it possible to automate the rule but save the exceptions back into the database, for foreign languages, etc. This is of course a great story, which also results from the fact that we are fully integrated and all applications access a central database.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, that's a very important point. We hear that very often on the market. Or that people say: "We have 17 different layouts, but we have another 22 that look similar, but not exactly the same". And there is the approach that you build 17 plus 22 templates accordingly.

You can do that, but it's never an efficient process because it takes time. What we can do is much more efficient: We create templates for the standard pages and the graphic designer designs these exceptions freely in InDesign.  Then, as you said, we save it back into the database. This means that if I update any content there, the layout remains as finished as the graphics were, even for foreign languages, even for subsequent publications. And I always say that we can guarantee a high-quality layout, but still offer a very high level of automation. And that is the top class, so to speak.

Jochen Muffler: Let's move on to the next point, which is becoming increasingly important: the topic of e-commerce / electronic formats. Where do you see the current focus or developments?

Herby Tessadri: Yes, that's an exciting topic. If I may say it a little humorously, it's good for us and stupid for our customers. I have the feeling that every year someone in Europe gets up and designs a new format, a new portal or something else. And there are a lot of formats that people have been saying for 20 years that they won't be around for much longer and that are still very much in the market.

This means that companies are increasingly required to provide more and more different formats so that they can be listed in any form at all in the portal, at the retailer, at the sales partner, because they are of course also dependent on good data so that the content on the website is coded accordingly by the search engine. And that's in addition to the digital product passport that we mentioned, which is simply a legal requirement. In other words, I have no immediate benefit from a sales perspective, I have to do it.

Now that we are moving away from the traditional catalog a little, electronic channels are the place where customers buy or make purchasing decisions. All the more reason to focus on them. And the more portals, formats and partners there are, the more you have to deliver something there. And that is the big challenge of mapping all these formats.

Then there is the international idea: what BMEcat is in Germany, FABDIS might be in France. And so there is a multiplication of these requirements in the international market, because there are other formats that have developed over the years.

Jochen Muffler : Do you have a few more examples of electronic formats that are supported by crossbase?

Herby Tessadri : There are the classic classifications such as ETIM and E-CLASS, currently in versions ten and 14 respectively and steadily increasing, which are then transported with the BMEcat 1, 2 or 2.5 carrier format. That's a big deal, because I have to transpose my products into this classification in some way.

This means that if I describe something with length, width and height, it may be called "installation height" or "installation length" in the format. And then I have to somehow say that one corresponds to the other. There are now great AI-supported formats from crossbase. Then there are portals such as Oxomi, nexmart and ausschreiben.de, which we support.

As I mentioned earlier, there are FABDIS, fabory, loadbee and many others that we support. I would also venture to bet that we are one of the companies that support the most of these formats on the market from a central data source.

Jochen Muffler : You've already touched on the exciting topic of AI, artificial intelligence. But what is it like at crossbase? What are we developing there? Perhaps especially from the perspective of electronic formats? How can AI provide support?

Herby Tessadri: Let's take ETIM, there are different versions and, unfortunately, companies have the task of delivering ETIM 8 to trading partner A and ETIM 9 to trading partner B. And they differ. The first thing I have to do is say that my product belongs in category A, B, C, D, E. AI can help with that. We are already delivering good results here.

And then the second thing is this mapping. The width feature corresponds to "installation width", as explained earlier. Here too, AI can provide a great deal of support to speed up this really laborious manual process.

I don't think it's possible now or in the foreseeable future to imagine that you just press a button and it's done.

Jochen Muffler: The famous push of a button.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, but I always say that if I can do 80% by machine and still have to do 20% by hand on my arm, then it's much more efficient than if I have to do everything by hand on my arm.  

Jochen Muffler : Are there any other aspects in which AI plays a role or will play an increasing role in the future, particularly in the PIM sector?

Herby Tessadri : AI is of course making huge strides, as in all areas of our lives. It started with text generation: creating different texts from the information that is there, so that you no longer have to write them by hand.

Jochen Muffler: In other words, using features to create appealing texts that correspond to a specified length, style or target group.

Herby Tessadri: Exactly. So that's a topic. From features, from relationships, from other texts, from connections to other products that you have in the PIM. Here, too, I think the results are excellent, always depending a little on the industry. Of course, there are industries, such as medical technology, where the control mechanism has to be much more precise than for other very simple products. But nonetheless, the whole thing delivers good results.

And the exciting thing is, and here too we are very advanced at crossbase, if I now imagine that I press the button: "Generate this text for me", then that is smart at first. But I have hundreds of products with different influencing variables that affect it. And there are different characteristics, different base texts that are then used as the basis for this generation process.

And now one of these influencing variables is changing. This happens all the time and is one of the main reasons why a PIM is necessary. Texts, technical features and images may change. And now, of course, I also need to know where I have used these things. We saw that earlier: Integration towards the print catalog - I can update it right away. Towards the portal - I can update right away.

But of course I also have to look at this generated text again to see where this information has taken place or been used, and with crossbase.ai you can monitor precisely these processes and only regenerate and recreate those things that have also used this changed basic information. That makes the process faster again and it also makes it cheaper than if I always have to produce everything.

Apart from that, it's about customers documenting which content is AI-generated and what's behind it.

Jochen Muffler: Which is also a legal requirement, EU, AI Act, etc.

Where then logs are kept of which prompts were used, which engines were used, who initiated the thing, when did it happen? These documentation requirements.

Herby Tessadri: That's very important. So that's one of the issues surrounding all this text generation, where we've had great success.

Jochen Muffler: So you can generate texts, for a start.

Herby Tessadri: Of course you can translate them, but translation is clearly a point and a step before that. So there are many AIs that can translate. Probably one of the most widespread currently is DeepL, which is used by our customers. We can also provide the customer's terminology for this, so that the language is also the same in the foreign language as the customer speaks.

And you can already see that it has gone from initial skepticism in 2017/18 to a well-established process. Some then go through a correction process, but many others leave it at that. The argument is that they say: "I can now compare quality versus speed". In other words, we have customers who say: "Yes, I'd rather be on the market immediately with the new product in 15 markets because I have the text. Even at the risk that it might not be perfectly translated into Greek, for example."

And the second thing I would like to say: We always contrast AI with perfect humans. In other words, we say that if the AI process is not perfect, if the result is not perfect, then it is bad. And imply that what a human does is always perfect - which is not true at all.

So we see here that the AI translations are sometimes used without any control, because speed simply takes precedence over quality. If the quality is worse at all.

Jochen Muffler: You can optimize it.

Herby Tessadri: That's also an issue, I can do that. And as I said, crossbase also offers a correction process where I can say I'll take a look at it, make corrections and the system learns from it.

Jochen Muffler: Exciting developments in any case. Especially in the area of translation.

Herby Tessadri : There is also the issue of images. Things like searching for the background in the focus point and the like. Or image composition. For example: take a KTM motorcycle and place it on a race track in the desert. It's not about putting just any motorcycle there, because then it's not our customer's motorcycle, but exactly the motorcycle we want. And tell the AI: make something of it. Put a rider on it. Make a group picture out of different individual products, i.e. different variants of a product.

And what we have been doing recently, which has been very well received, is data quality and validation. In other words, we have functions in the AI area that allow you to go over the data in the PIM and say: take a critical look to see whether things are wrong for plausibility reasons, i.e. a value is missing or some formulation is completely wrong compared to the values that are available next to the text in the PIM.

And this is an issue where you can really make a difference, especially with large amounts of data, i.e. for companies with many products.

Jochen Muffler: These are already major advances in terms of efficiency. In other words, how tasks that used to be hard work can now be transferred to an AI.

Herby Tessadri: That's right, and again it's about the faster, the better the information is on the market, the sooner I can sell my product. And that's the credo these days.

Jochen Muffler: Yes, time-to-market.

So much for AI. Perhaps not quite as exciting, but still essential: can you say something about our basic data model, i.e. how we can map data? Are there any limits or topics where we say we are particularly suitable? Especially when it comes to mapping product data.

Herby Tessadri: Well, the great thing is that we have no limits. Not everyone always believes this straight away, but we are happy to prove it.

So you have to think bigger. You always start by thinking of a product structure with different levels and then there is information on different levels that is then inherited and ultimately used somewhere. That's the basic principle. But we can also depict many other stories.

As we heard earlier, editorial content is something that is not necessarily product-related, and we can also map things like this. We can also map applications. We have customers like LEUCO, for example, where you can search for a machine on the website and then see which products are suitable. It's all about application knowledge and the like. These are also topics and structures that we can map very well and very flexibly in crossbase and can also describe this machine again like a product with images, texts in several languages etc. and can also use all these processes that we discussed earlier.

Overall, we at crossbase always enjoy it when things get a bit more complex. In other words, we have a lot of customers who have very complex products that are described in depth with many features and complex dependencies and things like that. That's where we are extremely strong. We love that. Of course, we can also map simple products and describe them clearly.

Jochen Muffler: We have a wide range. Right up to complex configuration logic. Everyone has configured a car and knows that if I add part A, then suddenly part B no longer works. These are the kinds of logics that we can map.

Herby Tessadri: We have a close affinity with product configuration. We have a lot of opportunities to do this here. And, of course, we also have interfaces to our partners where we can control this configuration process very intensively. Take pet food, for example. That's not so trivial either. For example, for a product that a dog can eat, you have to build in dependencies as to which dog is allowed to eat what amount at what age and at what time. These are also complex tables that are then mapped, which may sound quite trivial, but are not so trivial in the mass of dependencies.

Jochen Muffler: But in my experience, it often doesn't seem that complex at first glance. I can think of asecos, for example, with its hazard cabinets. Where you think: well, it's just a cabinet, there's a drawer and maybe a trigger or something.

But because of the whole combination, i.e. the combinatorial logic behind it, there are of course many, many variants, coupled of course with legal requirements as to what you should, what you may and what you may not do. And the corresponding certificates behind them. And then there are perhaps accessories. And so this product logic is slowly growing almost immeasurably.

Herby Tessadri: Absolutely right. We don't have a customer where things are completely simple. And things often appear much simpler on the outside than they are in practice. This makes it all the more important to perhaps have a different perspective on it: often the customer may not even be aware that one issue or another can also be solved with the PIM, because it's not even in the scope, because they haven't thought about it.

Of course, it's also our job as consultants to say: think about this, think about that, you could take it with you, use additional synergies.

Jochen Muffler: Ultimately, you realize that when you go into the workshops and do the analyses. Then you realize what other topics there are to the left and right of the road that you may not have considered at the beginning.

Herby Tessadri: That's how it is. Of course, with 25 years of experience in various sectors, you can tell what else is out there and often surprise your colleagues. But nevertheless, there is always something in every project that makes you say: Ah yes, that's right, we've never seen that before, we could still use that. And of course we're happy to take that on board, because you can continue to work on the software, continue to work on the service portfolio. That's valuable input for our users.

Jochen Muffler: You've been a thoroughbred salesman for 25 years and naturally have a wealth of knowledge. I think you have received many inquiries over the last 25 years. And we have launched many, many successful projects.

Isn't it the case that you don't primarily want to sell something in these initial discussions, but first want to understand what the requirements are, what the challenges are for a particular customer? And these are also very, very different. Firstly, depending on the industry, and secondly, depending on the customer.

I think you naturally bring a lot to the table. Your initial contacts with customers probably go very deep into the consulting process. Where initial ideas are already being developed, right?

Herby Tessadri: Yes, that's always the case. There are also a lot of questions: how can we do this and that? And of course you have to provide answers. You have to be able to say how far it can go, how much it will help. There are also ideas where you have to say that a PIM can't help, you have to be honest about that.

Jochen Muffler: And what would that be? Where can a PIM not help?

Herby Tessadri: Yes, phew. There are things, marketing automation or similar, that are simply other tools.

Jochen Muffler: Okay, those are completely different areas.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, PLM too, right? There is product lifecycle management, which can of course be mapped to a certain extent in the PIM system, but only to a certain extent. There are special systems and you have to differentiate yourself to a certain extent and say that's not our job. And we probably won't be able to deliver this level of quality.

And there are ideas, often from adjacent, overlapping stories. Just recently: price calculation. Of course we can and must manage prices. Even complex ones with dependencies and graduated prices and customer-specific and country-specific characteristics. And we have to transfer this to catalogs, electronic formats and much more. And of course, the idea often arises that you say: "We have three markets here, there is no ERP system and they also have to calculate. Can't you extrapolate the prices?"
 Yes, you might think. You should be able to calculate three percent more, right? But then there are smoothing issues and marketing influences and it's simply a complex issue that could be solved very easily at first glance, but in practice it's not so easy. And that's why these are points of demarcation where the PIM no longer fits in my opinion.

Jochen Muffler: There are simply things where PIM is virtually predestined. And on the other hand, there are topics that work alongside it, so to speak.

Herby Tessadri: That's right.

But back to the consultation. Of course, this is an issue where you have to tell customers that this is possible and that it may even go much further than you think. And the other just doesn't work.

That's the issue where you simply have to be honest about what's going on. And I also believe that if you say you can do something, then you have to show it. Only then can you believe it, because there are already a lot of people on the PIM market who tell you the sky is the limit. And that has been the case for 25 years.

There are many companies that are introducing their second, possibly third PIM system. And they're often branded children. They really want to know what's going on. And you have to deliver that.

This makes it all the more important to ensure a smooth transition process from sales to consulting. We don't have a sales process and then comes the consulting, but rather a smooth transition in which both departments are involved. It's important to have a smooth transition so that the consulting department clearly knows what was discussed during the sales phase.

Jochen Muffler : How do our projects work at crossbase, what is our approach, which has matured over 25 years?

Herby Tessadri: Normally, interested parties send us an email: "Please supply us with a piece of PIM system" and then we deliver it. (sarcastically)

Jochen Muffler: Okay, then we deliver it, install it and everything is good for all time. (sarcastically)

Herby Tessadri: No, it's not like that, thank God, is it? Because of course nothing useful comes out of it. They are usually longer processes. But it starts with a conversation where we say: what do you need, what do you want, what are your expectations? Based on this, we then draw up a presentation and simply show the interested party in a first round what it could look like, what they expect.

If we then realize that we are both talking about the same thing and our counterpart is happy, then we move on to a second, somewhat larger round. We might do a proof of concept with data from the customer. We talk about initial prices, usually license prices. And when everything has progressed accordingly, we move on to the analysis stage.

And that is a key point. This is a workshop that is still separate from the project itself. We spend one or two days with the customer and then we ask more questions and show more. We simply have to get to know what the customer has in the background.

Jochen Muffler: So where the shoe pinches.

Herby Tessadri: Where the shoe pinches. But what data is actually available? What systems are there that can be used to obtain data? What processes are there in the company? What roles are involved here? And that's what we work out in these workshops on the topics we need. And the result: a really comprehensive guide where, firstly, the customer knows what to expect.

Keyword: planning the manpower they need to implement the project. And on the other hand, we also know what we have to do and can then make a binding, monetary offer. But we can also plan the project accordingly, appoint project managers who have the relevant industry expertise and, of course, the resources to guarantee that the project is implemented as planned.

And that is the point at which the handover from sales to consulting is complete, because both departments are then deeply involved. If the consulting department is not even more deeply involved.

Jochen Muffler: On the one hand, there is the product, the software that is installed, the license. On the other hand, of course, there is the service. What sets crossbase apart?

Herby Tessadri: Well, I think that the service is at least as important, if not more important, than the product. It's always a very complex project, and it demands a lot from the people in the company. They usually do this alongside their working hours, otherwise they wouldn't have had anything to do beforehand. So it really is something that is intensive and where you often have to do things that are perhaps a little more complex than they first appear. But the advisor knows what is important.

And that's where competent advice and sympathy between the project participants is important. And that works well when you have competent people who advise our customers, but who also remain consistent. This is something that is incredibly appreciated by our customers. Throughout the entire project, there is a project manager and a deputy who work on the project with the customer.

They do all the workshops, they help with the migration, they provide training. That is something that is very, very, very much appreciated. And the best thing is that these two also remain the contact persons during ongoing operations. And I think that is also a unique selling point of crossbase. All our customers can confirm that it is quite different from having to call or write to first, second or third level support and first having to explain who you are and what you want.

With us, you call the personal contact person in the consulting department and say: "You, there's a problem with product XY" and the consultant knows what you're talking about. That just makes it easier. And that is very, very much appreciated by our customers.

Jochen Muffler: This means that the project manager is involved right from the start, together with the sales team, and there is a smooth transition into the project so that everyone speaks the same language. You introduce people to each other and brief them: what are the requirements, what is important in the project?

Herby Tessadri: That's exactly the issue, especially mapping products and transferring them to the channels. But as we've already discussed, there are lots of ideas about what else can be done at the margins. And we can help or not, as discussed. But with these topics in particular, it's important to explain very clearly to the consultant: what did the customer want? How did we in Sales think we could solve this? Not that the project manager stands there with a big question mark and says: what do you mean? It's simply that there doesn't have to be any idle time with the customer, that you don't have to talk about the same thing five times. That's why we rely on consistent communication, consistent contacts and that's that.

Jochen Muffler: We don't work with integration partners either. It has to be said quite clearly that we have everything from a single source. So installation of the software, analysis and, before that, all the necessary processes. But in the end, of course, everything remains in-house, including the entire project knowledge and, of course, the consulting, which then runs like a common thread through the entire project.

Herby Tessadri: We also guarantee to rectify faults in a very short time, which is something you won't find anywhere else on the market. And that only works if the distances are short, the know-how is available and communication is simple. If I have an external partner who takes this on again, who can never be as deeply involved in the topic as the software manufacturer, it's simply not possible. And then there are the first frictional losses, here the interface from the customer to the partner to the manufacturer and back again. That can't be as efficient as if the manufacturer does it directly.

Jochen Muffler: I also see it in my daily life. When the software developers are at the coffee machine here in Böblingen with the consultants, in addition to the usual conversations, there are always professional topics where people ask: "How did that actually go here and there? And couldn't this be solved differently here and there?" Where consulting and software development are short-circuited, which is also a big issue for us.

Herby Tessadri: Absolutely. We really only develop here at our site in Böblingen. And that's exactly what you're talking about, this proximity, this direct communication, knowing each other. Even though many of us work from home from time to time, we know each other and can talk very briefly. And of course also at the coffee machine. This simply makes it possible to find solutions very quickly. And I also believe that this direct input from consulting to software development in turn helps with the innovation and further development of the software. This is because it conveys wishes and ideas that pop up in the customer's project much more directly to the developers than if this were done via external partners.

Jochen Muffler: Yes, that's how I perceive it too. These short communication channels, that you have a round table, so to speak, where the developers sit together with the consultants, that you have really short communication channels and also make quick decisions.

You mentioned the issue of service, service contracts, maintenance contracts and so on. Let's take the example of blockers. For blockers, for example, we guarantee that we will remove them within 48 hours. Usually even within one working day. It has to be said that this happens very rarely. But this direct communication and proximity enable us to offer this guarantee without batting an eyelid.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, this is something that is often asked three times in sales presentations. And I want to explain this again: we're not talking about response time. Response time means I've read it, and I may not even understand the problem. I have read it. Troubleshooting or guaranteed troubleshooting means it's done. And we guarantee this in writing in our contract. I always say: talk to our customers. If there's a fire, it's quick.

Jochen Muffler: We also say: call any of our customers and ask them. We are happy to make contact and don't shy away from interested parties delving deeper and asking: Yes, how did the project go?

Herby Tessadri: Well, we once had someone who really called everyone - we had far fewer customers back then. We are very transparent. In the past, we even listed the contact persons with their names and contact details in our success stories. For data protection reasons, we no longer do this publicly, but we are happy to provide contact details on request. People often ask us: could you put us in touch with company A, B, C?

And we don't have to instruct our customers: please don't talk about this and please don't talk about that.

Jochen Muffler: Customers are not briefed beforehand.

Herby Tessadri: No, I ask as a courtesy, also because customers usually have to ask their superiors whether they are allowed to do this. But I'm not afraid of that and our customers are always happy to say: "Yes, we'll do it", because there is a high level of satisfaction. And I think the high level of satisfaction is partly because the solution and the product are good. But it's not the case that we don't have the odd error in the software, that a misunderstanding doesn't happen in a project or that we talk about different things, if you think that doesn't happen with us, then you would be very illusory.

Jochen Muffler: We can't promise that the software is bug-free either. Even Microsoft and Adobe do that.

Herby Tessadri: But nobody expects that and nobody expects the project to go ahead without any discussion. The only question is, how do you have these discussions? How do you rectify errors? Or if there is a misunderstanding and it turns out: oh, we were talking about different things. That you then say: okay, we'll sort it out behind the tables. And that's what works very well for us and is appreciated by our customers.

Jochen Muffler: But I also believe that our approach, the fundamental way in which we approach our projects, leads to success. In other words, a crystal-clear definition of what the customer expects from us and what they get in the end. I believe that disappointment always arises when I expect 120 percent but "only" get 110 percent, no matter how it may be defined.

That's why it's important to say in advance: this is exactly what we defined, this is what you get, this is what we heard from the analysis. And that is then kneaded again. It is sent to the customer, confirmed and perhaps reviewed again in the next workshop.

Herby Tessadri: So there is a project procedure that has been refined over 25 years, which has of course changed, but in essence already has this iterative approach, which is perhaps called agile. We start and build on this continuously, validate the results again and again and check whether the expectations have been met. This is something that has simply proven itself and works for all projects.

In terms of sales, we don't make it easy for ourselves because we are very honest. We say: "Okay, if you want this, you have to do this and that, and you also need this and that consultant." Another provider might write in the offer: consulting on a time and material basis. That's not a lie, but it's also not communicated how much is involved. That is a challenge that we face. And that's why we often refer to our customers: "Talk to them about how it works and what we do."

Jochen Muffler: In other words, we clearly state in the analysis which modules are needed for the specified requirements. And you can develop a multi-stage roadmap, level one, level two, level three ... but then it is also very clear what costs the customer will incur for licenses on the one hand and for services on the other.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, we usually know the modules very well before the analysis. Of course, the sales team already knows this very well. At most, it may be that other ideas come into focus as a result of participants who are added during the analysis and something else is needed. But these are small things.

What becomes clear there is the actual service required to implement the project. We also factor in things like support for data migration. Of course, I could say: Dear customer, deliver everything to me in this format, otherwise it will cost extra. But that's exactly what we don't want to do. We know exactly that here and there a question, an intermediate step is required. And that's why we say: Calculate with a few days of support here and a few days of support there. Customers underestimate this. And it's something that also sets us apart from other competitors and often makes us seem expensive at first. There are providers who don't do that. In purely formal terms, they're not doing anything wrong, but in the end the project is tens of times more expensive for the company, tens of thousands of euros more. We prefer to announce this in advance and say that these costs may arise. But it could just as well be that you don't need it at all.

Jochen Muffler: You can say that without blushing: the budget is clear from the outset. Services, licenses and perhaps a certain buffer. Project management costs are also factored in, so the customer has a clear basis on which to calculate and then tackle the project.

Herby Tessadri: That's how it is, so it's very honest. I say that very often when we discuss an initial cost estimate. It's about the software modules. We say: look, this, this and this module could basically be left out for a start.

For me, it's also about giving the customer something that gives them a reliable basis for planning and not something where you know from the outset that you'll have to explain to them in five months what else has been added. That's just not our style, we've never done that and we don't want to do that either. As I said, sometimes it's not always easy from a sales point of view.

Jochen Muffler: What's it like in principle? We say: "We'll support you wherever we can, but at the end of the day it's a solution that can be operated independently".

Herby Tessadri: That is very important and sets us apart from many of our competitors. And I consider that to be very essential, at least in our circle of customers. If the customer has to come to us for every change to the system, then firstly it costs money, which he may not have had in mind at the beginning.

But that's not the worst thing, in my opinion. If I have to write or call someone every time and ask them to do something, then there might be a misunderstanding. Then there's one or two more loops. In addition to the high costs and the high workload that it generates internally for me, it also leads to frustration at some point. And we know this from the many replacements we have made. These customers then told us: "We just didn't use it anymore and we worked with this and that compromise". And then we reach the point where a product is somehow half-communicated.

We said it at the beginning: the decisive factor is how well a product is described at the time of purchase. And if I only do that 80% of the time, then I might be worse than my competitor. And that is exactly what must not happen. That's why our approach is: the customer can do things independently, just about everything. I always say: "If you buy your competitor tomorrow and have to build a completely new layouter in print or somewhere else, then you do it. You don't need us for that."

Of course we support our customers in consulting, in the ongoing process. But the effort involved is minimal. It takes a few days; for large customers, maybe half a day. And in addition to the costs that are not incurred, the customer is also very efficient when working with the system. And that's how it should be. It just takes a little more effort to get the customer to the point where they can do it themselves.

Jochen Muffler: So he may need more training, but then he can do it on his own for the next two years. For example, the topic of print, right? Layout templates, for example. Can you perhaps give a concrete example of how this works and why the customer can work independently? In contrast, perhaps, to another system.

Herby Tessadri: There are several aspects to this.

If they want to define what their print catalog, brochure or flyer should look like, our customers use the graphic layout editor. It's very close to InDesign. This means that I can draw my basic layouter in InDesign, the tool that customers usually work with.

Jochen Muffler: Visually, so to speak, and sometimes even, if I know correctly, with the same keyboard shortcuts, i.e. the look and feel.

Herby Tessadri: That's right. The look and feel is the same, the operation is very similar and I can import what I've created in InDesign into the crossbase layout editor and then put the rules on top of it. So I have to put the intelligence on it. This is where the image goes in, this is where the text goes in. If the text gets longer, that may be displaced and all those stories.

But that's not programmed in some scripting language, it's done by the customer with a graphic layout editor. For all our customers, this is done by our colleagues from the graphic designers, who certainly don't want to learn a scripting language. And so it's very easy to say: tomorrow we'll swap these areas. Because the layouter does it again with the graphic editor and so the customers can work very self-sufficiently.

And if they have any questions about a special function, such as creating the table of contents, because the last time they did it was five years ago and they no longer have the process to hand, they simply call one of their personal contacts and they explain it in a few minutes.

Jochen Muffler: Yes, I think that's also extremely important. That you optimize the work, but don't reinvent the wheel and go down a very, very technical route. You have to say that the process should be as similar as possible to what it has been up to now.

At a certain level of abstraction, of course. Instead of an image, you place a placeholder for a certain type of image, i.e. an application image or photo. And this construct can then be reused.

Herby Tessadri: Yes, absolutely right. This tool, the crossbase.layout editor, is almost 25 years old and has of course evolved a lot over time. But you can see from the acceptance how well it works. It's precisely those people who were previously in graphics, graphic designers who work with InDesign, Photoshop and Illustrator, who are also very happy to work with the tool.

Jochen Muffler : Acceptance is also a key issue. You switch from a manual process or perhaps from another system to a new system. Of course, it's important to know how a new system is accepted. That is also critical to success.

Herby Tessadri: The introduction of a new system is, of course, a psychological and political story, in addition to the content that you have to deal with. So of course there is change and change often leads to ... I don't want to say fears, but to skepticism and reservations. And that is of course something where you have to treat the people in the project with care. You have to take their wishes, fears and anxieties seriously. And also take on board what you can.

On the other hand, I would like to take a sentence from a former marketing manager of a customer. He said that he wanted to replace manual work with mental work among his graphic designers. The background to this was that his colleagues had been busy for months copying and pasting some technical values in 17 languages into an InDesign document. Flyers, brochures and all these things that would have been needed were left behind.

That's something a system could do very well. Tapping this data into it is what our print output does. And ultimately, it has led to an improvement in the quality of work and life for the graphic designers in the company.

And that's just InDesign. We talked about electronic formats earlier. We have dozens of customers who spent days and weeks preparing Excel files before crossbase in order to be able to provide them in the required formats. It's an error-prone process, an exhausting process and not really entertaining. Now it's automatic. But optimizing the process, defining the data and workflows, that's what makes it fun again.

Jochen Muffler: We have very, very high standards for our service, which is of course also reflected in the corresponding mark-ups. We regularly carry out customer surveys: "How satisfied are you? Where can we improve?" We naturally have very, very high service standards because we offer everything from a single source. What would you say are the other advantages and unique selling points of crossbase?

Herby Tessadri: Well, there are major unique selling points, some of which we have already talked about. The very high level of integration. The wealth of electronic formats that we can deliver. The personal contacts.

Those are the big things. But there are many, many little stories in the functions that perhaps not every customer needs. For example, Illustrator generation, the generation of content in drawings and the like. Multilingualism, that's a USP of crossbase. The archive server, a function where there is also a legal requirement in medical technology. Archiving and saving data statuses and making them available again for an audit. And here there are a whole host of smaller functions that we have to deal with on our own. Which do not exist in this form.

I would also like to come back to print. When it comes to print, we always talk about automation and producing lots of pages and thousands of data sheets. But we also have an Adobe plug-in for InDesign and Photoshop, which allows us to design very freely. But you still access the current data in the database and it stays connected. Now there are customers who have catalogs with many pages that can be highly automated. They may have a lot of data sheets that they still have to produce, whether they want to or not, in order to make them available as a PDF, for example. This is something that overflows from the print process and is usually still printed.

But they have introductory pages in the catalogs, they have flyers, brochures and things like that. Now, of course, you can make highly technical tables with a plug-in like this. But it's not efficient. I can also make marketing pages with a layouter plus template and automation. But that's not efficient either. In other words, I need the plug-in for one case and this higher level of automation with all the possibilities it offers for the other. Only if I have both can I really produce such things efficiently. And I don't think any provider offers that.

Jochen Muffler: At the beginning, of course, you are faced with the decision to introduce a system, I have certain issues that are not running smoothly at the moment. That is the motivation to introduce a PIM system. On the other hand, there are of course many things that only become apparent during implementation and where it becomes clear that one solution is perhaps better for the requirements than the other.

Herby Tessadri: That's the point. That's our job in sales to point this out. It often doesn't help if you've completed 80% or 90% of a task but 15% is still missing. People often forget to think things through to the end. Our customer interviews are certainly a help for anyone dealing with this topic. There you will find statements such as: "Thank God we thought of that at the time". "We didn't consider that ... but then crossbase had a solution". "You might not think about that, you might not even give it that much importance. But it's an important story."

Jochen Muffler: If someone is about to decide to introduce a PIM system, are there one, two, three, four, or even five points where you would say that they should definitely pay attention, that these are issues that are very, very important based on your experience?

Herby Tessadri: I think that if you've gotten this far in the process, then of course you've talked about functions and all these things. That should then be clear. But there are a few soft factors that are very important. We have been in the market for 25 years and perhaps every second or third project is a migration project for customers who already had a PIM system.

It's not always the case that the customer says: I want something new because I'm not satisfied with the existing product. It is often the case that the existing provider simply no longer exists. This means that the company was sold, the product was discontinued, in the worst case it was bankruptcy. Sometimes it was an individual development or something similar.

You have to ask yourself the question: how stable is my partner in the long term? And it's a very important question. There used to be very large PIM providers that no longer exist today. There were very small ones, like us, and we are still here. We have grown organically for 25 years. Stability is very important to us. Stability with regard to our colleagues, stability with regard to our customers, but also economic stability, which we also like to demonstrate with our corresponding valuations.

And this is a topic where I, as a customer, can ask myself: what strategy does the provider have, where will it go in the next 15 years or how stable is this provider?

The second question for the remaining providers is: what do I want? Do I want to work independently with the solution or do I want the service provider to do it for me?

There are certainly use cases where the company's resources are so limited that there is no time at all to look after the system. And then you let the provider do it all. I don't want to say that this is wrong, but I believe that for the majority of companies, self-taught work and autonomous work is a very important story that will also move the system forward, as discussed earlier.

Then, how dependent do I want to be on one or more partners? If I have a best-of-breed approach with five or six partners who solve my problem, then I have a lot of dependencies in the project. I may also have a wider range of functions here and there. Nevertheless, I have to think: is it worth it to me? Or do I want an integrated approach where I have everything from a single source, where I have a contact person who I can confront if there is a problem?

The essential thing: you should also evaluate how support and service are going? That's quite simple. I talk to five customers of the provider, then I find out. But these are the kind of questions I would ask myself again at the end, or perhaps even beforehand, if I decide to do so.

And one more thing: this has less to do with the choice of provider, but is also very important for the success of the project. Do I have the internal resources to do this? Everyone needs to be aware of this too. We at crossbase can do a lot, but of course we need the customer to at least the same extent. If the project is to be successful, the resources must also be available on the customer side.

Jochen Muffler: That was definitely an exciting conversation and very interesting when it comes to deciding on a particular PIM system. But also, of course, to get an insight into how things work. Both when replacing a system and when introducing your first PIM system.

Please note: The text has been edited to make it easier to read and understand.